Jesus is MAAAAGICK!

[Arrowhead]

Okay, so the other day I was upset over how someone just outright told me that magick was evil, the practice thereof was sinful, and Jesus would hate me (or something along those lines). Well, despite the fact I was fuming over it, I was reminded of the people who are overzealous christians and either claim that magick simply does not exist (so it makes me wonder why they get uptight about it) or that magick is evil. And it all got me to thinking of the misconceptions people have about philosophies and creeds, and how it backfires...

JESUS was an alchemist: He turned water to wine
JESUS was a witch: he floats on water
JESUS was a druid: He taught to seek knowledge and slept with sheep (get your minds out of the gutter  )
JESUS outright performed white magick: He cured a blind man

If anybody wants to add to the list or debate something, go right on ahead. I just needed to get off my chest how hypocritical people are about magick when it is clear that the 'miracles' jesus performed was some sort of magick.

Now I understand how in reality the stories are all about context, and teaches some sort of moral lesson and that the miracles are a hyperbole of what really happened. It is unfortunate that 37% of highly outspoken americans don't understand this (as in, 37% of all americans still believe in the bible word-for-word, whereas other places, like Ireland, England, Et Cetra, have under 15%)

Blessed Be,
~Arrowhead~

[Falcon]

The short version? Jesus did it before you, so that means you can't, cause you're a heretic.

 If it's not Jesus doing it, it's EVIL. No exceptions.

 Sad world really.

[Sylvine]

Nah. Jesus was a Vampire.

I mean, come on. 3 days dead on a cross, then noe night in a dark, cool tomb, and he's up and around again? Turning water into Vitae? And the notorious "Drink this, for this is my blood"...?

wait. THen again, Petrus and co should be cannibals according to that. I mean: They ate his flesh. Eew.

Yeah, literal belief in the bible can't do anyone any good.

Then again, per biblic definition, Jesus didn't practice magic. He had divine powers, as in "son of god". There *is* a difference, I'd guess. So since per definition, magic |= miracle, thus not coming from divine powers, it's source has to be antichristian. And the practice of magic, therefore, a sin. Even if You're, say, helping people, since doing so without divine permission ( I like the word "divine" ^^ ) would be playing God, thus even more a sin.
Or something along those lines.

My point: Well, it doesn't backfire inside their system, and You can't have a productive argumentation when one person is inside a system and the other is not. Thing is, their system works, in a way. If it works for them, so be it. I don't mind being called a sinner and a conemned atheist, neither do I mind the things that will supposedly happen to me in hell, since I do not share their view. You wouldn't take offense if I said, hmm... "unless You stop snacking between the meals, little fuzzy things with beeg teeth and maroon eyes will bite Your legs off"... or... at least I assume You wouldn't.... right?

Hum... its late here... sorry for the randomness of this post. ( By the way, I'll get to RPing until next week, I promise - sorry it takes so long. Until now, I didn't even have enough time to watch the forum regularly... even less to try to straighten that situation I got myself into through sheer ignorance of the political details and such ;) )

Sad world really.

Nah, the world is beautiful. Yup, that's what I genuinely belive.

It's just the people who are majorly screwed up. 

~Sylvine

[Arrowhead]

I want to understand how magick is any different than "divine power". God apprently created all of existence, including nature, and magick last I checked was very closely tied with nature. Of course, I guess I could swallow that there is the misconception that magick, on the otherhand, is the temptation of satan.

 

Oh, agreed, I do love this world. I just don't like how it is overrun with a bunch of blind fools and the occassional idiots who lead them.

Blessed Be,
~Arrowhead~

[Sylvine]

I want to understand how magick is any different than "divine power". God apprently created all of existence, including nature, and magick last I checked was very closely tied with nature. Of course, I guess I could swallow that there is the misconception that magick, on the otherhand, is the temptation of satan.

 

well~... first of all, I neither belive in the christian god nor in magic, so i'm kind of neutral ground here . 

Magic being the work and temtation of satan is hardly a misconception here. How should I put it? If I say "toothfairies are pink" and You say "Nope, thats a misconception. Toothfairies are yellow"... wouldn't we both be right?

The christians belive, practicing any arts of magic, be it tied with nature or demons, white or black, cursing or blessing, is wrong - since God stated somewhere in the bible that there would be no more miracles on earth, any sign of supernatural power cannot come from God. That leaves the opposite fraction. *shrug* seems to work for them. That's the thing with belief - You cannot prove it right or wrong, that's why You have to belive. It's the whole Idea ^_~

As for who is right or wrong in this case, it's similar. As both the existance of magic ( btw, is magic = magick , just spelled differently? r is it a different thing alltogether? ^^ ) and that of the christian God cannot be scientifically proven - and that's the kind of proof the people would generally accept, thus being the judge of what is right and what is not - , You can only either belive in one of them or not. Hell, as far as I can see it, You can also belive in both. As long as it works for You, it's ok.

GUess the only way to find out who was right in the end would be to die... but then, if the non-God people were right, You can't run around and tell everyone Your theory was right all the time ;)

~Sylv

[Arrowhead]

'magic' is the stuff you either see in movies or up on stage. It's fake, it is either slight of hand or an exageration. 'magick' on the otherhand is what pagans and witches (not all pagans and witches) practice. It is the act of become in-tune with nature and asking it to move in certain ways in which would benefit you. Normal people cannot see when or even if magick works because, in essence, it was gonna happen anyway. Performing magick is not much different than prayer, but much more effective because it isn't simply calling out in the dark to what you cannot see.

Magic being the work and temtation of satan is hardly a misconception here. How should I put it? If I say "toothfairies are pink" and You say "Nope, thats a misconception. Toothfairies are yellow"... wouldn't we both be right?

I see how this seems subjective, and it wouldn't be too far from being true that it is. However I am not saying what color the toothfairy is. I am more like saying that the toothfairy isn't a fairy at all, but your parents hiding money under your pillow, and you've never seen them doing it. It's just what I believe I know. This is still the toothfairy, just a more realistic version of it. Note that this hardly matters, because no matter what I say people will believe that the toothfairy is a pink midget with wings. Hence the subjectivism.

I don't remember it saying anywhere in the bible that 'miracles' were gonna stop happening. If it does, I wouldn't mind seeing the exact quote and where I could find it.

Blessed Be,
~Arrowhead~

[Sylvine]

'magic' is the stuff you either see in movies or up on stage. It's fake, it is either slight of hand or an exageration. 'magick' on the otherhand is what pagans and witches (not all pagans and witches) practice. It is the act of become in-tune with nature and asking it to move in certain ways in which would benefit you. Normal people cannot see when or even if magick works because, in essence, it was gonna happen anyway. Performing magick is not much different than prayer, but much more effective because it isn't simply calling out in the dark to what you cannot see.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

I see how this seems subjective, and it wouldn't be too far from being true that it is. However I am not saying what color the toothfairy is. I am more like saying that the toothfairy isn't a fairy at all, but your parents hiding money under your pillow, and you've never seen them doing it. It's just what I believe I know. This is still the toothfairy, just a more realistic version of it. Note that this hardly matters, because no matter what I say people will believe that the toothfairy is a pink midget with wings. Hence the subjectivism.

Eh, perhaps my example was chosen poorly. What I meant is: Scientifically speaking, Jesus was neither preforming  miracles through divine power nor was he practicing magick. Only thing one can agree on is that a person named Jesus did exist, was most probably an extremely charismatic person, and - as far as I know - was agreed on being the "son of god" by vote app. 350 years after his death. Now, that's a nice one, eh? But that's what history is hinting towards.

Now, of course, unless You have a broader understanding of science than, oh, 95% of people, You could argue that religion or mysticism are things that are to be taken seriously or literally; however, if we try to stay on a basis where everyone can argue with estabilished facts, the theory of the existance of the christian God and most probably each and every existing pagan theory ( though I cannot be certain there, of course ) contradict those facts. That's where You have to belive; and as soon as You do, You really cannot argue anymore.

However, I do not want to say that staying on the scientific, sober, all-mind-and-oo-belief - road Is in any way better than beliving in Jesus, Buddah, The Power Cosmic or whatever comes to mind ( and at this point, I beg Your pardon for (probably) sounding condescending. Just my way of talking ). In fact, those so called "facts" are mostly things that "seem" logical and "seem" most probable or just things people agreed on because it sounds right. Noone can answer every question; at some  point, every scientist has to answer with "Well, it simply is like that, period" ( though they'll probably rather say "The multitude of observations of this specific phenomenon hints towards it", which is a way to say "I have no Idea why it happens, but it does"). Gravitation? Just a theory. Big Bang? Pff. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. Evolution? We~ell, sounds plausible, right? It probably even really works like that. But You can't prove it, unless You agree on what counts as proof and what does not.

Phew, difficult subject ^^ Bottom line: It all comes down to belief, sooner or later. Or, to put it in an other way... who cares what others belive? They can't prove You wrong. You can't prove them wrong. If they try to, they're fanatics or morons. If You try... hum... You don't, do You? ^_~

I don't remember it saying anywhere in the bible that 'miracles' were gonna stop happening. If it does, I wouldn't mind seeing the exact quote and where I could find it.

Uhh, yeah... I'm not going to read through that thing again just to look for it. I can remember this being quoted by Jehova's Witnesses on numerous occasions as an answer to "Why does God let XY happen?". I belive the more exact wording would be that God stopped interfering into the affairs of Mankind, at least 'til Armageddon comes. But, as always, I very well may be mistaken here.

~Sylv

[Arrowhead]

*hugs* thank you for clarifying your stance. I really cannot say anything else at this point, so I won't bother.

Blessed Be,
~Arrowhead~